Comments on: Dynamic Duo of the First Century http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/ Mike Aquilina's Blog Sun, 05 Feb 2012 02:03:44 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1061 Mike Aquilina Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:48:32 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1061 Started? That's a pretty good finish, too. Started? That’s a pretty good finish, too.

]]> By: Kevin P. Edgecomb http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1060 Kevin P. Edgecomb Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:10:31 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1060 Absolutely. Those who dismiss the existence of bishops, presbyters, and deacons early in the Church's history are, for one thing, insane (in the sense that they are not dealing with reality, with the indisputable evidence at hand), but are anachronistic in their reasons. They think that "bishop" "presbyter" and "deacon" are all terms that are identical to the combined administrative/religious functionaries that we know of those names. Not being familiar with Tradition and how it works, however, they simply don't or won't understand that the roles played by these men (never women!) have changed through the years, while a core definition of their job descriptions has remained the same: the bishop (=overseer/inspector) was responsible for the integrity of the instruction and practice in each individual church; the presbyters/elders were those wise/established enough in the faith to advise the bishop; the deacons did the physical work of administering aid, serving at agape meals and the earliest eucharistic liturgies and so on. Again, it's a lack of familiarity, willful or not, with the Church that leads to such ignorant skepticism. The bishop didn't, so to speak, burst fully-robed from the head of Christ! You can see, also, the part that rejection of the existence of the bishop as preserver of integrity of the faith plays into all the faddish neo-gnostic nonsense touted by academics of various stripes these days. These stupid, crazy, theories of "Christianities" ignore reality. Ah well. Don't get me started! Absolutely. Those who dismiss the existence of bishops, presbyters, and deacons early in the Church’s history are, for one thing, insane (in the sense that they are not dealing with reality, with the indisputable evidence at hand), but are anachronistic in their reasons. They think that “bishop” “presbyter” and “deacon” are all terms that are identical to the combined administrative/religious functionaries that we know of those names. Not being familiar with Tradition and how it works, however, they simply don’t or won’t understand that the roles played by these men (never women!) have changed through the years, while a core definition of their job descriptions has remained the same: the bishop (=overseer/inspector) was responsible for the integrity of the instruction and practice in each individual church; the presbyters/elders were those wise/established enough in the faith to advise the bishop; the deacons did the physical work of administering aid, serving at agape meals and the earliest eucharistic liturgies and so on. Again, it’s a lack of familiarity, willful or not, with the Church that leads to such ignorant skepticism. The bishop didn’t, so to speak, burst fully-robed from the head of Christ!

You can see, also, the part that rejection of the existence of the bishop as preserver of integrity of the faith plays into all the faddish neo-gnostic nonsense touted by academics of various stripes these days. These stupid, crazy, theories of “Christianities” ignore reality. Ah well. Don’t get me started!

]]> By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1049 Mike Aquilina Fri, 30 Jun 2006 01:34:44 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1049 You're right, Kevin. And all of those factors must eventually play into any discussion of primacy, whether the claim is a universal jurisdiction (as in Rome) or a more geographically limited primacy (as in the other ancient patriarchates). Human nature demands hierarchy. And grace does not destroy nature, but rather builds upon it and perfects it. Marshall McLuhan used to argue that if there were only two Catholics left on earth, one of them would have to be pope. What's got to be deeply moving for any Orthodox or Catholic observer is how well developed the structures of authority were, even at that early date. It's clear not only in Clement — whenever he wrote — but in Ignatius's letters as well. That's yet another point well developed by the late Msgr. Herron. You’re right, Kevin. And all of those factors must eventually play into any discussion of primacy, whether the claim is a universal jurisdiction (as in Rome) or a more geographically limited primacy (as in the other ancient patriarchates). Human nature demands hierarchy. And grace does not destroy nature, but rather builds upon it and perfects it. Marshall McLuhan used to argue that if there were only two Catholics left on earth, one of them would have to be pope.

What’s got to be deeply moving for any Orthodox or Catholic observer is how well developed the structures of authority were, even at that early date. It’s clear not only in Clement — whenever he wrote — but in Ignatius’s letters as well. That’s yet another point well developed by the late Msgr. Herron.

]]> By: Kevin P. Edgecomb http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1048 Kevin P. Edgecomb Fri, 30 Jun 2006 01:16:27 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1048 Yep. One of the commenters over at biblicalia had exactly that same problem. I don't see it though. Of course, as an Orthodox person, I don't see a primacy issue, especially this early, so much as one of the local church's referring to the nearest appropriate major church in this crisis they were facing. It was not only the nearest major church, but the cultural home for most of Corinth's citizens. Corinth was a Roman colony, after all, and Rome was just across the Adriatic, making it certainly the closest of the great churches to which recourse could be made. But that whole issue is for another time! Yep. One of the commenters over at biblicalia had exactly that same problem. I don’t see it though.

Of course, as an Orthodox person, I don’t see a primacy issue, especially this early, so much as one of the local church’s referring to the nearest appropriate major church in this crisis they were facing. It was not only the nearest major church, but the cultural home for most of Corinth’s citizens. Corinth was a Roman colony, after all, and Rome was just across the Adriatic, making it certainly the closest of the great churches to which recourse could be made. But that whole issue is for another time!

]]> By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1041 Mike Aquilina Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:10:05 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1041 Kevin, I think you and I talked about that possibility. Herron actually reaches that conclusion -- that Clement wrote as a presbyter representing the Church of Rome. Some folks who lean on Clement as an early example of papal authority are troubled by that conclusion. But I don't think it makes the letter less valuable for Catholic apologetics if it's an illustration of Roman primacy rather than papal primacy! Kevin, I think you and I talked about that possibility. Herron actually reaches that conclusion — that Clement wrote as a presbyter representing the Church of Rome. Some folks who lean on Clement as an early example of papal authority are troubled by that conclusion. But I don’t think it makes the letter less valuable for Catholic apologetics if it’s an illustration of Roman primacy rather than papal primacy!

]]> By: Kevin P. Edgecomb http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1040 Kevin P. Edgecomb Thu, 29 Jun 2006 22:00:04 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1040 In addition to what Mike wrote above, there's also the distinct possibility (I forget who first suggested this--it's lost in the fog somewhere) that Clement was delegated to write the letter during a time before he was Pope, which would eliminate the seeming contradiction between an early date and Eusebius' date for him. I find this more convincing than requiring Linus to be squeezed into 5 years at most and Clement to around 30. That Clement was alive, part of the Church, and active in Rome even before becoming Pope is something that needs to be taken into account. After all, he didn't just pop up out of a vacuum, but there would be very good reasons that he was made successor to Linus. That letter would certainly qualify as one of those reasons. In addition to what Mike wrote above, there’s also the distinct possibility (I forget who first suggested this–it’s lost in the fog somewhere) that Clement was delegated to write the letter during a time before he was Pope, which would eliminate the seeming contradiction between an early date and Eusebius’ date for him. I find this more convincing than requiring Linus to be squeezed into 5 years at most and Clement to around 30. That Clement was alive, part of the Church, and active in Rome even before becoming Pope is something that needs to be taken into account. After all, he didn’t just pop up out of a vacuum, but there would be very good reasons that he was made successor to Linus. That letter would certainly qualify as one of those reasons.

]]> By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1037 Mike Aquilina Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:32:56 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1037 <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1579105270/mikeaquilina-20/002-8879480-1409651" rel="nofollow">John A.T. Robinson</a>, <a href="http://www.adoremus.org/10-12-96-Ratzi.html" rel="nofollow">Joseph Ratzinger</a>, and Msgr. Thomas Herron (out of print, but soon to be republished) hold to an early dating, before 70 A.D. Herron's argument is book-length and very good. God forgive me for the violence I'm about to do to it ... Herron finds 11 instances where Clement's letter sheds light on the dating question and he analyzes each in detail. Clement seems to assume a close proximity to the lives of Peter and Paul, that there are a goodly number of people still alive who knew them. He assumes that the Jerusalem Temple is still standing. The recent calamities he describes fit the early date better than the later. Also there's external evidence. The ancient Roman catalogues of popes name Clement as the third pope, after Peter and Linus (Augustine too follows this sequence). Jerome seems to place Clement earlier in history than Eusebius does. Eusebius is the primary authority for placing Clement later (around 96). Herron shows why Eusebius might have got his wires crossed. I'll put up an announcement once Herron's book is nearing re-publication. In the meantime, start with <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1579105270/mikeaquilina-20/002-8879480-1409651" rel="nofollow">Robinson</a>. John A.T. Robinson, Joseph Ratzinger, and Msgr. Thomas Herron (out of print, but soon to be republished) hold to an early dating, before 70 A.D.

Herron’s argument is book-length and very good. God forgive me for the violence I’m about to do to it … Herron finds 11 instances where Clement’s letter sheds light on the dating question and he analyzes each in detail. Clement seems to assume a close proximity to the lives of Peter and Paul, that there are a goodly number of people still alive who knew them. He assumes that the Jerusalem Temple is still standing. The recent calamities he describes fit the early date better than the later. Also there’s external evidence. The ancient Roman catalogues of popes name Clement as the third pope, after Peter and Linus (Augustine too follows this sequence). Jerome seems to place Clement earlier in history than Eusebius does. Eusebius is the primary authority for placing Clement later (around 96). Herron shows why Eusebius might have got his wires crossed. I’ll put up an announcement once Herron’s book is nearing re-publication. In the meantime, start with Robinson.

]]> By: Theocoid http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/comment-page-1/#comment-1035 Theocoid Thu, 29 Jun 2006 17:23:22 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2006/06/29/dynamic-duo-of-the-first-century/#comment-1035 Hey, Mike. I get so many conflicting dates for Clement's letter. William Jurgens puts it around the same time as you do, while Daniel-Rops dates it following Domitian's persecution. Can you point me to some other good sources on this letter? Hey, Mike.

I get so many conflicting dates for Clement’s letter. William Jurgens puts it around the same time as you do, while Daniel-Rops dates it following Domitian’s persecution. Can you point me to some other good sources on this letter?

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