Comments on: Return of the Oxford Movement http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/ Mike Aquilina's Blog Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:36:11 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Danny Garland Jr. http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-82136 Danny Garland Jr. Sun, 22 Apr 2007 03:33:02 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-82136 Yes, Rod, his early outlook, but not his Tracterian days. The Tracterian movement was to counter the Evangelicals. Yes, Rod, his early outlook, but not his Tracterian days. The Tracterian movement was to counter the Evangelicals.

]]> By: Rod Bennett http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80512 Rod Bennett Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:42:33 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80512 The Oxford Movement *created* Anglo-Catholicism, Danny! It didn't exist before that (though there was a "High Church" party in the 18th century under Archbishop Laud which did not call itself "Anglo-Catholic" and had already died out by Newman's day). The term "Evangelical", on the other hand, *was* in use in the early 19th century and meant (as a party within the CoE) pretty much what it means today. A great many of the Tractarians began in this "low church" wing of Anglicanism -- including Newman who uses the word "Evangelical" repeatedly in describing his own early outlook. Have another look at the "Apologia Pro Vita Sua." The Oxford Movement *created* Anglo-Catholicism, Danny! It didn’t exist before that (though there was a “High Church” party in the 18th century under Archbishop Laud which did not call itself “Anglo-Catholic” and had already died out by Newman’s day). The term “Evangelical”, on the other hand, *was* in use in the early 19th century and meant (as a party within the CoE) pretty much what it means today. A great many of the Tractarians began in this “low church” wing of Anglicanism — including Newman who uses the word “Evangelical” repeatedly in describing his own early outlook. Have another look at the “Apologia Pro Vita Sua.”

]]> By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80280 Mike Aquilina Wed, 18 Apr 2007 02:46:39 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80280 At the time the movement launched, yes, they were all Anglo-Catholics. But Newman (at least) had been a self-described evangelical in his youth. I don't know about the others; I suspect they followed a similar trajectory from low to high church, driven on by liberalism. At the time the movement launched, yes, they were all Anglo-Catholics. But Newman (at least) had been a self-described evangelical in his youth. I don’t know about the others; I suspect they followed a similar trajectory from low to high church, driven on by liberalism.

]]> By: Danny Garland Jr http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80180 Danny Garland Jr Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:35:56 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80180 I hate to point this out, but for clarifications sake, Newman, Keble, and Pusey weren't Evangelicals. They were Anglo-Catholics who were trying to reverse the errors of both the liberals AND the Evangelicals in the Church of England. I think it is a mis-characterization to classify Newman as an Evangelical and I'm sure he would probably take offense to it. I hate to point this out, but for clarifications sake, Newman, Keble, and Pusey weren’t Evangelicals. They were Anglo-Catholics who were trying to reverse the errors of both the liberals AND the Evangelicals in the Church of England.

I think it is a mis-characterization to classify Newman as an Evangelical and I’m sure he would probably take offense to it.

]]> By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80178 Mike Aquilina Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:18:19 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80178 In fact, he's a teddy bear. In fact, he’s a teddy bear.

]]> By: Kyle http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80177 Kyle Tue, 17 Apr 2007 22:16:31 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80177 Point taken. I read Mr. Bennett to discover that he wasn't really as bad as all that, and offered a small contribution to the discussion. :0) Point taken. I read Mr. Bennett to discover that he wasn’t really as bad as all that, and offered a small contribution to the discussion. :0)

]]> By: Sarah http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80080 Sarah Tue, 17 Apr 2007 17:17:41 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80080 I pray you are right. My husband is right now trying to figure out what the early church believed and did by reading what its members/leaders wrote. I pray you are right. My husband is right now trying to figure out what the early church believed and did by reading what its members/leaders wrote.

]]> By: Rod Bennett http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80047 Rod Bennett Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:13:26 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80047 Hi, guys. Mike asked me to step in for a moment. Kyle, I admit I generalized about the Post-Evangelicals -- but I think generalization is necessary for decent writing. Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule but one needn't stop and spell them carefully out each and every time one puts pen to paper. In my (relatively wide) experience with Post-Evangelicalism I've found the genralization to be valid. This really is an overwhelmingly reactionary happening, a pendulum-swing (very understandable) away from the too-close identification their parents made with the Republican Party. If you don't fit the mold, Kyle...well, I'm pleased. But most "Post-Evangelicals" do, enough so that the term has a readily transferrable meaning and works as a shorthand. Which is all I was after for my Oxford analogy. And Sarah: surely you saw that I wasn't endorsing the Stone-Campbell movement as a whole -- only noticing its original aspirations (to get back to the early church). In fact, one of my main points was that good aspirations alone and even intense study of the Fathers such as we saw among the Tractarians will not necessarily guarantee a solid result. (I pointed out, remember, that the study of the early Church led several of the Oxford men to abandon their faith altogether!) Anyway, perhaps you guys might like to continue the discussion over on my blog; I got a reply from the editor of CT himself this morning, so things should get interesting! Hi, guys. Mike asked me to step in for a moment. Kyle, I admit I generalized about the Post-Evangelicals — but I think generalization is necessary for decent writing. Obviously, there are exceptions to every rule but one needn’t stop and spell them carefully out each and every time one puts pen to paper. In my (relatively wide) experience with Post-Evangelicalism I’ve found the genralization to be valid. This really is an overwhelmingly reactionary happening, a pendulum-swing (very understandable) away from the too-close identification their parents made with the Republican Party. If you don’t fit the mold, Kyle…well, I’m pleased. But most “Post-Evangelicals” do, enough so that the term has a readily transferrable meaning and works as a shorthand. Which is all I was after for my Oxford analogy. And Sarah: surely you saw that I wasn’t endorsing the Stone-Campbell movement as a whole — only noticing its original aspirations (to get back to the early church). In fact, one of my main points was that good aspirations alone and even intense study of the Fathers such as we saw among the Tractarians will not necessarily guarantee a solid result. (I pointed out, remember, that the study of the early Church led several of the Oxford men to abandon their faith altogether!) Anyway, perhaps you guys might like to continue the discussion over on my blog; I got a reply from the editor of CT himself this morning, so things should get interesting!

]]> By: Mike Aquilina http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80022 Mike Aquilina Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:55:50 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80022 Kyle, my good man! I expect a higher degree of tolerance from someone who, like Rod Bennett, tends to blog in rather strong terms. There's every reason to read Rod, as there's every reason to read your blog. In any event, Rod writes as a former Evangelical pastor, so he draws from some experience. Sarah: I agree with you. History employed selectively and apart from tradition can get really wacky really quickly. And the more postmodern types will pick and choose from the historical smorgasbord till they've assembled a Church that suits their fancies. But the literature of conversion (a rich genre in recent generations) again and again proves Newman's point about being "deep in history." Gretchen: as always, thanks for the kind words. I'm praying for you as you make your way. Kyle, my good man! I expect a higher degree of tolerance from someone who, like Rod Bennett, tends to blog in rather strong terms. There’s every reason to read Rod, as there’s every reason to read your blog. In any event, Rod writes as a former Evangelical pastor, so he draws from some experience.

Sarah: I agree with you. History employed selectively and apart from tradition can get really wacky really quickly. And the more postmodern types will pick and choose from the historical smorgasbord till they’ve assembled a Church that suits their fancies. But the literature of conversion (a rich genre in recent generations) again and again proves Newman’s point about being “deep in history.”

Gretchen: as always, thanks for the kind words. I’m praying for you as you make your way.

]]> By: Gretchen http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/comment-page-1/#comment-80020 Gretchen Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:44:43 +0000 http://www.fathersofthechurch.com/2007/04/17/return-of-the-oxford-movement/#comment-80020 Thank you for the post and link! Thank you for the post and link!

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